No Limits Car Club: Forums / Driver Techniques / Heel & Toe

Forums

No Limits Car Club :: Forums :: Driver Techniques

<< Previous thread | Next thread >>

Heel & Toe

Author

Post

Jai

Sun May 27 2007, 08:28PM

Instructor

Joined: Sun Dec 31 2006, 06:42PM
Posts: 798

i know there are other forums with this information on it but i thought i would also put info on here...

more for people that dont know how... or cant quite get it to learn, and also different peoples opinions of how to do it....

it is simple in theory...

you use the ball of your foot to press the brake and apply pressure, you then twist and roll your foot to get your heel to 'blip' the throttle duaring the downchange of gears.
This helps by reducing sudden load on your drivetrain. eliminates compression lockups, and saves gearboxes from certain death.

Organiser - Instructor

Blooness

Sun May 27 2007, 08:40PM

Registered Member #88
Joined: Thu Apr 05 2007, 08:25PM
Posts: 14

This is the next thing i have to learn. Would stop me from having to brake so soon, i tried as best i could on the night, but probably wasnt braking hard enough. Also a proper driving shoe may help me feel the pedals better. Im sure with time and sheer deterimation, ill get it !

Dan

"Theres Always Someone Faster"

Short Track - 1:05.5127

Spektor

Sun May 27 2007, 08:48PM

All Motor Screamer

Joined: Thu Jan 11 2007, 05:44PM
Posts: 393

Couple of other points to add:

* There seem to be quite a few styles of Heel-n-Toe so try different ones out to see which one is best
* Heel-n-Toe also saves clutch wear as in order to upshift without shocking the transmission you have to ride the clutch more.
* It's easier to Heel-n-Toe when at speed and hard braking than practicing in normal traffic. This does however increase risk of failing spectacularly

Jai, for first timers trying out Heel-n-Toe on the track what are some of the better corners to do it on? Reason I ask is I can't heel-n-toe and I feel it's too dangerous to attempt it on certain corners (Cat and Fast Ford)

EDIT: I'm very wrong. The turns after the straights are the best corners to try it. You've got lots of time to get ready on the straight and you can brake a bit earlier for more error margin. You can't on the hairpin

[ Edited Fri Aug 17 2007, 08:47PM ]

Short Track - 0:59.26
1/4 Mile - 14.0
8500 RPM MIVEC Lancer revv loving goodness!

Jai

Sun May 27 2007, 11:04PM

Instructor

Joined: Sun Dec 31 2006, 06:42PM
Posts: 798

to be honest they are the best corners to try it on... and the hairpin esp with the rapid brake to a slower corner.

i heel and toe everyday on the street.... it makes for good practice. you need to watch you pedal pressure when you do it as its very easy to push too hard on the brakes while trying or to lift off the brakes

Organiser - Instructor

ed40

Mon May 28 2007, 08:10PM

Registered Member #87
Joined: Thu Apr 05 2007, 08:11AM
Posts: 13

I heel and toe on the street too

It was easy in my old speedway car but if i'm wearing any type of shoe in my falcon my knees rub on the wheel because my seat is too f*kn high! I can do it fine barefoot i just use my big fat foot which covers the brake and accelerator pedals in one haha.. Sort of like using my small toe to dip the throttle

I need to get a new race seat and rails so it sits lower and i can wear my old speedway boots again. Any suggestions on a race seat brand? Would it be a silly idea to get a fixed back seat for a street car?

Spektor

Tue May 29 2007, 12:21PM

All Motor Screamer

Joined: Thu Jan 11 2007, 05:44PM
Posts: 393

Ed40 - My response to the race seats...

[link]

Short Track - 0:59.26
1/4 Mile - 14.0
8500 RPM MIVEC Lancer revv loving goodness!

FranZ

Tue Jul 24 2007, 10:31PM

franzonline.net

Registered Member #66
Joined: Sat Mar 03 2007, 10:36AM
Posts: 27

I suggest also just blipping the throttle to go back through the gears when slowing down slowly ie not using the brakes - this can be practiced on the street relatively easy. What this does gives you a feeling of how much and how quickly you have to blip the throttle to get the revs up.

Franz
franzonline.net

Short Track: 55.6 (Evo 8 MR), 56.9 (300ZX TT)
Long Track: 66.4 (Evo 8 MR), 66.9 (300ZX TT)

SINISTR

Tue Jul 24 2007, 11:05PM

CRX Obsessed

Registered Member #109
Joined: Wed Jun 13 2007, 08:26AM
Posts: 98

agree with Franz on that one...
I learned first by shifting from 4th to 3rd and then 3rd to 2nd (no brakes) just blip the throttle normally to get an idea what revs each gear needs to shift smoothly. Then when you can do that well, at home (with hand brake on and no clutch work) just press the brake pedal with your toes (ball of your foot), and try blipping the gas with you heel, so you can gather the amount your heel needs to go to the right revs while your toes are pressing the brakes.
Back on the road, try it from 4th into 3rd... it will take practice. and then 3rd to 2nd... and IF you're brave enough... att the right speed of course 2nd into 1st *ive done that couple times and it works perfectly*

I find my gen1 and gen2 CRXs - No issues heel toeing. My Gf's Gen3 crx like her previous EG civic... I have really hard time trying to heel toe... the accelerator just isn't high enough for easy heel blip. I've heel-toed friends EVO couple times too... he's never done it and is practicing now.

[GENONE] 83 CRX
[BANDIT] 84 CRX
[SINISTR] 91 CRX

Brett Williams

Wed Jul 25 2007, 07:23AM

Organiser

Joined: Mon Jan 01 2007, 06:58PM
Posts: 339

I've been doing this more on the street in both my Hilux 4b and the Pulsar and when you get it right omg it feels so good haha.

Brett Williams - Organiser

Fogz & Mrs Fogz

Fri Jul 27 2007, 06:49PM

Joined: Mon Jan 01 2007, 06:59PM
Posts: 71

When i was 17 I could 'heal and toe' in my Dads Landcruiser with my thongs on!

At the last event all instructors commented on how many drivers absaloutly hammered their gear boxes both on down and up changes something we will assist to address at the next event.

Race car drivers are fast due to there ability to control the brakes!!!!!!!
This does not mean wait to the last minute and slam on the brakes
Its all about feel and timing.You use the brakes to help control the cars pitch, dive, turn in and road speed into a corner.
You squeeze the brake pedal so the goes into the braking zone flat and stable, not standing on its nose. the car will have a nose down rear up 'rake' due to inertia and gravity but the transition from squat( throttle) and dive ( brake ) needs to be as smooth as possible.

The brake pedal is squeezed with the ball of the foot as it is the best position for feel and control and to be able to pivot and roll your ankle so the side of your foot blips the throttle pedal, while maintaining brake control.

Toes on the brake pedal; not enough strength and cant pivot correctly
Foot too high; the brake will be 'pinched' and it is way too hard to reach acc pedal
Hoons who STOMP on the brakes do this

The heal and toe tecnique is essentially a brakeing manouvere and control of the brakes is what should be in the drivers mind. You blip the acc pedal without changing your braking control when you are squeezing the brakes the hardest.
this is just before you turn in and usually in a straight line but you carry the brakes into the corner ( Trail Brake) after the down change to assist with turn in and road speed.

To do this well is a big advantage but many who say they can do it loose any advantage with poor excecution, then the driver aids take over!

Remember Feel and timing!
We will be assisting as many as possible at the next event to get this right

Cheers Fogz

PS Trail brakeing and idiot assist, oops driver aids are thread topics on thier own!

And then it went bang! This is what happens when the crank breaks at 7000 rpms.

Blooness

Fri Jul 27 2007, 11:57PM

Registered Member #88
Joined: Thu Apr 05 2007, 08:25PM
Posts: 14

Great post Frogz, so much for us new guys and girls to learn !

Dan

"Theres Always Someone Faster"

Short Track - 1:05.5127

Jackal

Thu Aug 09 2007, 05:36PM

Registered Member #11
Joined: Thu Jan 11 2007, 10:40AM
Posts: 61

Yeh very helpful! Keen to put this to the test next event.

Spektor

Fri Aug 17 2007, 08:42PM

All Motor Screamer

Joined: Thu Jan 11 2007, 05:44PM
Posts: 393

Got the guts to heel-n-toe last night. Just needed to pluck up some courage; not the dutch kind

Something else Fogz showed me. You don't necessarily need to use your heel to blip the throttle. You can use (mostly) any part of your foot. My accelerator is (I think) quite high so I blip it half way up my foot near my ankle bone

Reason being, you can't lift your heel up-and-over-the-go-pedal to blip the throttle without changing your braking pressure on the ball of your foot (well you probably can but it'd take alot of practice). You need to roll you ankle to the right to blip it.

Short Track - 0:59.26
1/4 Mile - 14.0
8500 RPM MIVEC Lancer revv loving goodness!

TruSTI Rex

Sun May 11 2008, 12:13AM

Registered Member #293
Joined: Sat May 10 2008, 11:04PM
Posts: 3

heel and toe is all about practice practice and more practice
or waiting for a formula one fully sequential box with electronic shift assist (blips throttle for you) to appear in the quokka

[ Edited Sun May 11 2008, 12:18AM ]

WIDE OPEN TILL YOU SEE GOD... THEN BRAKE!

Moderators: Jai, Brett Williams, Fogz & Mrs Fogz, Spektor